Talk:Wine

Line 126: Line 126:
 

note 1 refers to article, first defining sentence of which is "wine, the fermented juice of the grape": so source was obviously contradicted by ignorant rewrite[[User:Wran|Wran]] ([[User talk:Wran|talk]]) 14:46, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

  

note 1 refers to article, first defining sentence of which is "wine, the fermented juice of the grape": so source was obviously contradicted by ignorant rewrite[[User:Wran|Wran]] ([[User talk:Wran|talk]]) 14:46, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
 

*Wran, you need to read [[WP:BRD]]. It is only now that you talk on this page, after refusing to engage at the ANI page. At this stage, your edits look like warring, which will get you blocked if it continues. I suggest talking about the issue on this page before making your changes in the lede of the article again, as there is yet to be a consensus on your viewpoint. [[User:Dennis Brown|<span style="font-weight:900;color:#0044aa;">Dennis Brown</span>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<small>2&cent;</small>]] [[Special:Contributions/Dennis_Brown|<small>&copy;</small>]] 15:05, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

  

*Wran, you need to read [[WP:BRD]]. It is only now that you talk on this page, after refusing to engage at the ANI page. At this stage, your edits look like warring, which will get you blocked if it continues. I suggest talking about the issue on this page before making your changes in the lede of the article again, as there is yet to be a consensus on your viewpoint. [[User:Dennis Brown|<span style="font-weight:900;color:#0044aa;">Dennis Brown</span>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<small>2&cent;</small>]] [[Special:Contributions/Dennis_Brown|<small>&copy;</small>]] 15:05, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
  +

**your comment is a lie: I never refused anything and rather was the first to say that discussion should have preceded the unjustified deletion of my clearly correct contribution: YOU need to try reading what I wrote, which you "refused" to respond to ([[User:Wran|Wran]] ([[User talk:Wran|talk]]) 15:21, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 15:21, 7 May 2012

This subject is featured in the Outline of wine, which is incomplete and needs further development. That page, along with the other outlines on Wikipedia, is part of Wikipedia's Outline of Knowledge, which also serves as the table of contents or site map of Wikipedia.
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject icon
Portal icon Wine portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Wine, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of wines, grapes, winemaking and wine-producing regions on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
 B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
Note icon
 This article is a nominee to be the Wine Improvement Drive subject. Please comment on the nomination.

This article has comments here.
WikiProject icon
Portal icon Food portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Food and drink, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of food and drink related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
 C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
Checklist icon
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

This article has comments here.
WikiProject icon This article has been reviewed by the Version 1.0 Editorial Team.
Taskforce icon
 This article has been selected for Version 0.7 and subsequent release versions of Wikipedia.
Peer review Wine received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which is now archived.  It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.
e · h · w · r Stock post message.svg To-do:
  • Add summary section on winemaking
  • Shorten long sections by summarising or splitting them
  • Reduce number of sections to clean up TOC
  • Add more inline citations
  • Add more images

Archives

[edit] Wine to FA by end of the year?

This is one of the more interesting topics in Wikipedia and it should have an article worthy of FA status. I would like to see a collaboration effort to try and get this article to FA by the end of the year. Any one interested in giving it a go? Agne 07:44, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I think not. There are still enormous archeological discoveries to be made in Armenia that are killing the wild Georgian speculations. We don't need a Joseph Stalin like propaganda to be arbitrated before the discoveries in Armenia can be implemented. There are still glaring inconsistencies with ancient maps and etc....People still have serious doubts with regards to the Georgian claims especially in light of the discoveries being made in Ancient Armenia. Those who control the past control the future. ["1984"]. I would like to see the world Churches get involved with this topic since Jesus Christ himself said this about wine: "This is my blood....."Monte Melkonian (talk) 20:28, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Some thoughts for improvement

  • Content Forks - I think this should be priority #1. The article is quite cumbersome in its current capacity due to the breadth of its subject matter. I think we should treat the wine article like a country article and make productive use of splinter articles and content forks. (FA Examples Canada, India, and Australia). To that extent I think we need to work on some splinter articles based on our current section headings like History of Wine, Wine Production (which should go more into wine making techniques), Classification of Wine (Condense some of the material in the Wine article but keep the material intact in the splinter), Uses of Wine or maybe even more detail in uses and Religious views of Wine and maybe Medical uses of Wine.
  • Better in-line citations.
  • Get rid of some of the list (which ties into better use of content forks as noted above) and get some pretty tables for some of the data.

Those three are the most glaring to me. Any other thoughts? Agne 08:00, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Update: I cut and pasted the current history section in this article into the splinter article History of Wine as a first step. Obviously this is just a starting point and some work needs to be done so that each article has a life of its own. From here we need volunteers who are willing to A.) Continue to work on writing and developing the History of Wine article, with particular notice being paid to good, solid referencing. B.) Consolidate and summarize the historical information from the splinter article into 1-2 paragraphs for inclusion into the main wine article with a link to the splinter article. Again we need to focus on good, solid referencing. Agne 20:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

This fork was very useful. Still the history section is too long. Why not shorten it? (by half?) Winetype (talk) 20:22, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Why is their a contradiction on where wine originated? There is now archeological proof (oldest wine making operation discovered in Armenia) that wine originated in Armenia. Why is Georgia mentioned as the only place where wine originated when there have been no discovered operations other than in Armenia? These contradictions are confusing to the readers. Moreover, why isn't the Armenian word "Gini" (pronounced Keenee) in the Indo-European languages mentioned? Whys isn't the method/technology and culture (namely, language) of production of wine that was passed to other tribes by Armenians mentioned in the wine making process? Moreover, historically and culturally, why are semetic tribes mentioned in the language section when these tribes were nomadic and had no vineyards to tend to or pass on the technology? Monte Melkonian (talk) 21:20, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Why include wild speculations without archeological proof that wine originated in Georgia? Isn't it true that the Georgian language is neither Indo-European or semetic? Then if so, why confuse the readers on how the technology/culture was passed to other tribes through language? These are just some thoughts that I find disturbing. Monte Melkonian (talk) 21:28, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Melkonian, because it is sourced and the publisher is certainly more respected than some shady Armenian sources which have been cited by the BBC and others. How on earth can 6000BC Armenian wine-making sites be older than 8,000BC ones in Georgia? True, the title does claim that it is the world's oldest but the numbers are provided and the rest is simply a matter of math.--ComtesseDeMingrélie 23:18, 23 March 2011 (UTC) Please follow the guidelines of respect on this forum with Wikpedia. Archeological evidence by UCLA scientists is hardly shady. They have no atelier motives. However, proclaiming Georgian origination by Georgian paid scholars with wild speculations is not only self serving, but, indeed harms the neutrality of Wikpedia guidelines. There are no wine making operations discovered in what is the so-called "Modern" Georgia. Implying that Georgians invented wine just because they found some residue on wine jars in far off locations is indeed jarring. Monte Melkonian (talk) 19:41, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
1.I find it puzzling that you accuse me of not following the guidelines of respect even as you accuse a legitimate University of Pennsylvania scholar of being "Georgian paid" without providing a shred of evidence. If you are against "wild speculations," as you said, I think avoiding such accusations would be a good start.
2. I do not see any claims that Georgia invented wine, they are simply saying that the earliest evidence discovered points to that. If they find something dated earlier elsewhere, they will most likely attribute the origins of wine to that place. I'm afraid this is as specific as archaeology can get when dealing with millenia of history. For this reason, I suggest that you vent your nationalistic feelings elsewhere. --ComtesseDeMingrélie 19:52, 24 March 2011 (UTC) Please don't engage in silly accusations. As I recall, you began the conversation by accusing the scientific and archeological finds with a wine making operation by the "BBC" and "UCLA" as "Shady." That violates the neutrality requirements for these posts. Thus, I see a lot of misinformation and obfuscation from reality. Nobody is going to believe you. Not even the Devil himself Joseph Stalin. Monte Melkonian (talk) 22:32, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

When Jesus Christ said "This is my blood...", was he talking about Joseph Stalin's Georgia? Or, was he talking about the First country to adopt Christianity like Armenia? Didn't Joseph Stalin spit out the wine in Church in exchange for power as the leader of the Communist Party? These are some the questions that have religious significance with regards to wine. I hope you have some succinct answers without engaging in bating. Monte Melkonian (talk) 19:23, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Regarding where and when wine originated, there are two statements here to which I would like to respond. 1. "Why is there a contradiction on where wine originated?" Because wine was invented in prehistoric times, so it is unlikely that archaeologists will ever be able to pinpoint the exact time and place. In all likelihood, the first people to make wine left no evidence for archaeologists to discover. 2. "There is now archaeological proof that wine originated in Armenia." Archaeological evidence suggests that wine first came into general use somewhere within about 500 miles of the Black Sea, some time during the Neolithic or Chalcolithic. To say that there is archaeological "proof" that some prehistoric invention originated in a certain country indicates one of two things: a. that the person making the statement never got past 8th grade and doesn't understand how science works, or b. was educated in a dictatorship or third-world country where that kind of hyperbole passes for scholarly discussion. Zyxwv99 (talk) 15:21, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

[edit] White/Rose images

One of these is clearly a recolouring of the other. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.236.79.253 (talk) 06:48, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Photoshopping can change water into wine... /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 19:25, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Health Effects

I find this part confusing: "Professor Valerie Beral from the University of Oxford and lead author of the The Million Women Study asserts that the positive health effects of red wine are "an absolute myth." Professor Roger Corder, author of The Red Wine Diet, counters that two small glasses of a very tannic, procyanadin rich wine would confer a benefit, although "most supermarket wines are low procyanadin and high alcohol."[69]" I don't understand why Beral thinks it is a myth, was this somehow indicated in the Million Women Study? I found an article [1] where she expresses concern for the link between alcohol and breast cancer. But this doesn't really mean that the positive health effects of red wine don't exist. So I think these quotes from the BBC article should be deleted, and possibly replaced with information about the breast cancer link. --Aronoel (talk) 17:14, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, that whole passage you quoted comes from the cited source. It explains that Beral thinks it's a myth because "the Million Women study reported that just one drink a week increases your risk of breast, pharynx and liver cancer" (quoted from the article).
The passage should be clarified, or expanded using the information in the second source you found. ~Amatulić (talk) 00:29, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Removed a rather tall claim about wine being made "for thousands of years" based on "some Vedic scripture" [2], as it is based on a website www.indiamarks.com, which does not appear to be reliable source, especially for a claim like this. Athenean (talk) 22:54, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of Wine

The recent edits of this article show that in addition to Georgia, wine also originated from Armenia. The claim about the oldest winery being discovered in some cave in Armenia as of January 2011 needs to be checked for accuracy. The only sources that I've found so far point to some articles in Armenia trying to claim that the oldest winery discovered so far is from one of the regions of that country. A thorough check and review of the sources that are included on this page would be sufficient to determine whether such claims are accurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.43.1.66 (talk) 06:43, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree with you. First off, I'm not sure the provided source can be used as a reliable source. Second, source claims winery from Armenia dates back to approximately 6000 years ago. How is that winery the oldest when a vintage in Georgia exist 8,000 years ago. [3] January 2011 edits need to be checked. We need reliable sources about this issue. –BruTe Talk 11:03, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Maybe you two should see [4] and [5], I'm shure CNN and BBC aren't Armenian.--Aram-van (talk) 04:07, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

I see two possible sources for the confusion:
  • The claims about Armenia were published before the Georgian discovery
  • One claim is about the oldest winery discovered, while another concerns the oldest wine. Not the same thing.
I think both facts can be included with the proper explanation and context. ~Amatulić (talk) 23:45, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
Let's not be too quick to jump to conclusions and say that one is about "winery" and the other not. Just because the Independent article does not specifically mention a wine-making facility does not mean that those jars have been laying out in the fields or on a shelf in someones house.--ComtesseDeMingrélie 23:54, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Me personally, any sources from democrat countries and their scientists are more reliable than former communist aparachi such as Georgians and their beloved serial killer Joseph Stalin. The novels "1984" and "Animal Farm" by George Orwell were written just for Stalin himself. Monte Melkonian (talk) 19:37, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Those who control the past control the future. Monte Melkonian (talk) 19:40, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Wine vs beer consumption - ambiguous and irrelevant?

User:BernhardtP recently made this edit to add a table showing wine versus beer consumption, ranked by ratio.

This is meaningless. The measurement is in units of liters of pure alcohol, which is fine when reporting just wine, but it's apples-to-oranges when comparing with non-wine. I mean, if the comparison was wine versus orange juice, or wine versus chicken broth, you couldn't use alcohol content, you'd have to use volume.

And that's the problem with this table. In terms of volume, assuming wine has 3 to 4 times the alcohol of beer, the table simply shows that the beer consumption in most countries equals or exceeds the wine consumption. So what? That isn't surprising.

Because it isn't a valid comparison, I am inclined to remove this table, but I want to see someone else comment first. ~Amatulić (talk) 22:51, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Comparisons by alcohol level might be useful for medical or social analysis. Binksternet (talk) 00:25, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
Also: comparisons by cost, or by single unit of sale, or by single serving portion might be of interest for business segment analysis. Binksternet (talk) 00:33, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
Well, the cited source purely has the context of alcohol consumption and its demographics, distribution, health effects, etc. This isn't an article about alcohol, it's about wine, so I'm still not sure how a digression into a comparison on the consumption of alcohol by country belongs here. I have a problem with that source in general for use in this article. It's all about alcohol, so everything there is expressed in units of alcohol. That has little relevance to the article topic, especially since the wine industry worldwide uses volume (bottles, barrels, liters) of actual wine, not volume of alcohol in the wine produced. ~Amatulić (talk) 01:46, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
I like having the table. Wine and beer are very very commonly compared counterparts. In fact, many legal jurisdictions placed them together in an entirely different category from most alcohol (for licensing purposes and in statistics). It is useful, verifiable, and generally enlightening to have their consumption compared. Steven Walling 04:40, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
Wow, the "consumption" tables are truly a liability. First of all, the country selection is arbitrary at best: The left-hand table seems to be drawing on the countries with the second- through eleventh-highest per-capita wine consumption, while leaving out the country with the highest per-capita consumption. The right hand table is maybe showing the countries with the highest wine/beer ratio?, but that's completely unsourced, is not an intended use of the WHO data and may not be statistically valid. Additionally, as mentioned by Amatulic, measuring by liters of ethyl alcohol is an unusual and misleading presentation of the data. In short, the selection and presentation of the data has rendered it into decontextualized, useless trivia. --Sneftel (talk) 12:40, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
It's true the table lacks Luxembourg, the highest per capita consumer, but of course that can be easily fixed. Otherwise, the table does not elucidate the health concerns of alcohol and it does not use prose to describe the situation. I think it should be moved to the article Long-term effects of alcohol. Comparing beer to wine consumption is commonly done but not usually by unit of ethanol. The beer v. wine table should be replaced by prose discussion of relative sales and production. Binksternet (talk) 17:51, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
Good points all. I found a source for per-capita consumption of wine, measured by total volume rather than alcohol volume. (I don't want to spoil the surprise, but it turns out Luxembourg is number two.) --Sneftel (talk) 17:11, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

[edit] New World

Native grapes were abundant in parts of the now-United Sates, but as far as I know, no wine-making was ever done by Native Americans. An explanation of this phenomenon if possible would be of interest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.82.127.174 (talk) 15:26, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Potential references

Centralized discussion on such links in Further reading: here --Ronz (talk) 16:18, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

[edit] La Sicilia del Vino

Though Sicily certainly produces many interesting wines, I don't see why a book on Sicilian wine belongs in the bibliography of this article. Not because it is in Italian -- there are surely some valuable non-English-language books on wine that belong in the bibliography (e.g. something by Emile Peynaud) -- but because it is too specialized. Even a book on all Italian (or French or American or Australian) wine probably doesn't belong here. I also question some of the other entries in the bibliography. Wikipedia is not a how-to guide, and I don't think we should be including how-to guides on buying wine, or multiple introductions to wine appreciation. --Macrakis (talk) 01:53, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

[edit] Two five-ounce servings

This is English-specific. I do not know how it should be done exactly, but "two 100 cl glasses" should be added next to the Imperial measure units. --Pot (talk) 15:02, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Was that a typo--correct finger but other hand? That's 200 cl as in 2 liters, or 67.62 ounces? Cheers Encycloshave (talk) 15:34, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

[edit] Wholesale deletions

There have been two deletions lately of the same content but for different reasons. Portions of the first paragraph and all of the second paragraph have been deleted because they either were "undue bits" or because of a "contradicted cited source." As there are four citations, it is unclear which is contradictory. Looking at the first page of Encyclopedia Britannica's Wine and its subsection Fruit wines, this source is not contradicted. Barley wine discusses barley wine, but it does not include information about ginger or rice wine. As such additional citations would be needed to cover the rest of the information. The Simon & Schuster Pocket Wine Label Decoder and Vintage: The Story of Wine. Simon & Schuster are inaccessible to me, thus I cannot confirm the veracity of the article's statements. Any insight on this? Cheers! Encycloshave (talk) 15:32, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

I have Vintage and can verify any info. What part was that pertaining to? AgneCheese/Wine 16:07, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
I'm guessing the the pages are a typo—"pp. 11-6"—perhaps somewhere between pp. 6 and 11. The article content is, "The natural chemical balance of grapes lets them ferment without the addition of sugars, acids, enzymes, or other nutrients."Encycloshave (talk) 16:15, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
Okay, it may take a while. There is some minor edit warring going on at Champagne that is taken my attention. Two editors after only a couple days of discussions wants to hammer in their "two person" consensus into the article. AgneCheese/Wine 16:33, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
As Wran has chosen not discuss edits, I have elevated the issue at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Encycloshave (talk • contribs) 15:07, 5 May 2012‎ (UTC)

Sorry about the delay. I had a family member taken ill by a brown recluse spider bite and most of yesterday was spent at the hospital dealing with that nastiness. :( But I looked into the matter and the reference citation looked familiar and I realized it was because I added it back in 2007 for some information that was already present in the article. (My ref was for pages 11-16, somewhere along the way the 11-6 popped up) I looked further and found the source of the original line was from a 2006 edit from a user who is no longer around. Now looking at Vintage, I believe the reason why I used this reference was because of passages like this on pg 11 and the several other instances from there to pg 16 where Johnson talks about how wine can be made without virtually any interference from man--just crushed grapes in a seal jar is enough to ferment to wine, etc. AgneCheese/Wine 19:30, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

note 1 refers to article, first defining sentence of which is "wine, the fermented juice of the grape": so source was obviously contradicted by ignorant rewriteWran (talk) 14:46, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

  • Wran, you need to read WP:BRD. It is only now that you talk on this page, after refusing to engage at the ANI page. At this stage, your edits look like warring, which will get you blocked if it continues. I suggest talking about the issue on this page before making your changes in the lede of the article again, as there is yet to be a consensus on your viewpoint. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 15:05, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
    • your comment is a lie: I never refused anything and rather was the first to say that discussion should have preceded the unjustified deletion of my clearly correct contribution: YOU need to try reading what I wrote, which you "refused" to respond to (Wran (talk) 15:21, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Wran 07 May, 2012


-
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Wine&diff=491194823&oldid=491192420
--
Manage subscription | Powered by rssforward.com
Open www.sexword.blog.com------
Adult Webcams